Far
Travelers Oral History Project
Interview with Anonymous Musician
(Click here for Word Document version)
DATE: April 7, 2006
INTERVIEWER: Jacob Henning
Q: This is an interview with XXXX on April 7th, 2006 . Let's just begin with some demographic information. What is your name?
A: My name is XXXX, but in Chinese we go last name first and first name after, so in Chinese it will be XXXX.
[Q & A about name omitted]
Q: Do you have an English name that you go by ever, or have you not – ?
A: No, I never adopted an English name.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: I was born in western China , close to the border, between the border of China and Russia . Because my parents worked there at that time. In Chinese it's called Xinjiang Province. My parents worked there when I was born.
Q: Is that where you were raised before leaving?
A: I stayed there for three years and then we moved back to Beijing area when I was just three years old.
Q: And you stayed there until you left?
A: Correct.
[Q & A about parents' names omitted]
Q: What do your parents do?
A: My father was a retired professor and administrator at the Tianjin Conservatory of Music. He was trained as a musician, composer, conductor, and he did administrative work when he worked at the conservatory. Now he's retired. My mother is an actress. She plays in theaters.
Q: A lot of arts in the family.
A: Just two of them, plus me.
Q: Do you have any siblings?
A: I have an older brother and a younger sister. My older brother started piano lessons when he was young, but he decided not to go further, so he dropped piano lessons. My younger sister started music lessons as well, but it was interrupted by the Cultural Revolution. So I was the only one started piano lessons, and I went to the music school affiliated to the conservatory when I was ten years old. Because of the Cultural Revolution, I was never able to go to school. That's why I stayed in music.
Q: What do your siblings do now?
A: My sister is a computer programmer in Los Angeles area. My older brother, he worked for a government sector, but he's an engineer.
Q: In China ?
A: In China , he's still in China .
Q: What is your education level, even though you're a doctor?
A: Well, as I mentioned, I went to a music school when I was ten and then I stayed there, but only a few years after that the Cultural Revolution began. Actually, I stayed in school, but I really didn't have any junior high and high school education at all, because the whole country was stopped. There wasn't school to go, there wasn't any classes. China basically was in a chaotic situation for quite a few years. I finally received my high school diploma, but only because I stayed there for many years, but I really didn't receive enough equivalent education there. Then when the college and university opened again after the Cultural Revolution, I went back to school and got my undergraduate degree in piano performance from the Central Conservatory of Music in Beijing . After that I came to the States. I went to University of Michigan in Ann Arbor first and received my masters of piano performance, and then I went to Boston University and got my doctoral degree.
Q: So in Beijing during the Cultural Revolution, what did you do during your middle school and high school years? You said you got your high school diploma, but what …?
A: That's a good question. When the Cultural Revolution just began, the school that I went to, the music school affiliated to the conservatory, was completely stopped. There was no school. Nobody… nobody taught. So basically what we did, in the summer we swim in the rivers, and in the winter we played basketball on a basketball court. So I spend about three or four years like that. There wasn't school. Maybe after a year or two of the Cultural Revolution, Mao Tse-tung, who at that time was the chairman of the Communist Party, also was the chairman of China , he ordered the workers in cities to enter universities and colleges. The idea behind that is to have college students… to have all the students and professors be re-educated, the peasant workers and soldiers. So when the workers enter the university, they take most of the top administrative positions. Although the school started to be more organized in terms of what you're going to do during the day, what you're going to do during the nights, but still there still wasn't music classes. All what we learned, we were trying to memorize Mao's poems and read his articles and discuss about his articles. We spend most our days like that.
Q: Okay. A different subject. Are you married?
A: No.
Q: Are you religious?
SD: I would say I'm undecided.
Q: Okay, fair enough. New sub-questions. Why did you leave China and decide to come to the U.S.?
A: In 1978 Nixon went to China . So from that point on -- no, I take it back. Nineteen seventy-six. That's before Mao Tse-Tung passed away. So he went to China and I believe in 1978 China and the United States reestablished diplomatic relationships. So some culture exchange programs took place, so I was the first time able to hear Philadelphia and the Boston Symphony Orchestra performing in Beijing . After the performance, I realized that this is the kind of music that I've been studying since I was six or seven, but the music they perform, the sound they produce was the best I've ever heard. After that point, several of my friends who left China , came to the United States , and I got information from them. They're saying that they learned a great deal of Western music and that they felt if you study Western music you should go abroad and get more education. So that's why I decided to apply for schools and study abroad.
Q: What was the hardest thing to do when leaving China ? Politically, emotionally, whatever. Did you face any obstacles from government?
A: Not at all. That was early 1980s. Although not many people at that time left China , not many. But I was lucky enough that I have an uncle who is a physician, lives in Hong Kong , and he was able to support me financially. So I was able to come to the United States and study. So he supported me for the first three or four years that I studied here.
Q: What were your expectations of the U.S.?
A: At that time?
Q: Yeah, before you left, living in China .
A: Very little, because I really didn't know what to expect. The time I grew up basically was the isolation period between the United States and China , so we got very little information about countries other than former Soviet Union and Eastern European countries, or all the so-called communist countries. We had no - well, I grew up with the slogan of "Down With American Imperialism." That was the kind of slogan we learned ever since I grew up. (chuckles) So I had no expectations, but I only knew that I will be able to learn a great deal.
Q: Have you lived in any other places other than Topeka ? You said you went to Michigan and Boston .
A: Yeah, I spent quite a few years in Boston before I came here. After I graduated from Boston University , that was during the period Tiananmen Square took place. At that time - well, actually, if I go back a little bit further, I always wanted to go back to China after I completed my school. But during the Tiananmen Square incident - that was in 1989 - it was difficult to go back there right away because of the political situation. So I decided to look for a job and just stay a little longer. So that's why I taught part time in different schools in Boston . And when I saw Washburn University 's job opening advertised, I applied and the university invited me to have an interview here. So I visited Kansas . That was the first time that I came to Kansas .
Q: When was that?
A: Ninety-two.
Q: What did you know about Topeka or Kansas before you got here? Did you have any perceptions about …
A: I think I only heard - oh, okay. The most distinctive memory of Kansas was a time I read from Time magazine about Wichita 's "Operation Rescue"? It's about abortion issues. At that time - you can check on the date probably, because that's the time I read about Kansas . So my impression is that the Midwest is not as quote liberal unquote as people in Boston or in the East Coast. So I really had no expectation how Kansas would be.
Q: How did you travel from China to the U.S. ?
A: You mean the first time?
Q: Yes.
A: By airplane. It was a very, very long trip. That was the first time I took an airplane. I was amazed about what I saw on the airplane, because we passed Siberia first, it was completely white. And then we passed Alaska , and then got into Canada , and then Detroit . That's the first city that I landed.
Q: What were your first impressions when you got off the plane? Do you remember what you thought?
A: The United States is very big; that's the first impression. And there's lots and lots of land. The highways - the infrastructure is something that I have never thought of that someone could have.
Q: You mean the roads and…
A: Yeah, the roads. That's the first impression. After I got off the airplane I took a bus from Detroit to Ann Arbor . It's about an hour and a half. Maybe not that much time, but it was on a highway. At that time China didn't have a highway. All we had was a dirt road, I guess. I did travel by trains in China , but mostly - I don't think I ever sat in a car before I left China .
Q: Did you come here alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know anybody in Detroit ?
A: Not really, but I did make some contact with people who studied at the University of Michigan . The associate dean at the music school there was a friend of my father's colleague. I didn't meet him before I came, but after I arrived I visited him. But I don't know anyone before I went to school.
Q: People that had been there before that you talked about, did they go to Michigan ?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they still there when you went?
A: No. My father's colleague graduated from Michigan in the 1940s, so after he graduated he left the States and went back to China . That's how my father got to know him. And while I was going to apply for schools, my father asked him if he could give any recommendations regarding schools in the United States . Because he graduated from Michigan , he said, " Michigan 's a really good school, you may apply, and I still have a friend there. I can write a letter, I can send tape there." That's how I applied, that was the only school I applied.
Q: So how did you adjust with not - because you still had to take general ed classes, right, there at Michigan ?
A: Not really because I have received my undergraduate degree in China , so by the time I got to Michigan , most of the classes are musical classes. But still, English is a problem, because I didn't study English before I came to the States. I probably just know a couple of hundred words, broken sentences, and that's all I knew. Then I studied English program there. I took English classes there, a little bit. Not through the university, through English for second language. There are different kinds of English for second language courses I took. And at the same time I took, basically, piano lessons and chamber music playing. The first year courses I took didn't require much knowledge of the language.
Q: Were you homesick?
A: At that time?
Q: Yeah.
A: Uh - (pauses) I don't remember. The reason of that is because I left my parents when I was thirteen. I went to Beijing for school. My parents are in Tianjing, which is about an hour and twenty minutes train to Beijing . It's not that far, but - it was a boarding school. I only go home - at that time I only went home like once a semester, so I got used to it. So I never feel homesick. I don't think - no.
Q: How did you begin playing piano? I think you kind of already said that, but …
A: Just because my father had something to do with it. I did ask him, I said, "Why did you want me to learn piano?" And he said, "Well, actually, I didn't know how these things come" Well, basically, he said he didn't know what's my aptitude in music. So he said, "If it works we give it a try." He said mainly because when I was little, every time I hear music I would dance, no matter how many people in the hall or how many people in the room. So he thought that somehow I have some kind of natural sense of music, perhaps.
Q: So during the Cultural Revolution, you played piano, but how did you practice when you - was it hard to play piano during the Cultural Revolution? You said that they shut down your school.
A: Right. Nobody really played at that time because Western - well, when we played piano, most of the piano literature was basically Western literature. Even though there were very few Chinese piano pieces at that time, but most of literature are Western compositions. So during the Cultural Revolution, those were denounced because they are - at that time it was called capitalistic –
Q: Elitist?
A: Uh-huh. Those are poisoning to people's mind and those should be completely destroyed. So that's how - nobody played. Teachers were afraid to teach because if you teach that kind of music you may get in trouble. So I didn't practice at all for maybe three years. And gradually, because there's nothing else to do, you play basketball, you swim, and after a long period of time you feel empty. So we started practicing. I mean, my classmates and some friends, we started practicing. But soon after that, Mao sent most of the colleges in Beijing to countryside, saying that we've got to be reeducated. So my whole school, including students and professors, were sent to an army-owned farm. What we did was - well, most of our time was studying Mao's books, and during the busy season of fieldwork we just worked in the rice field. At the beginning of spring we started working in the field just planting rice, and by the fall when the rice was matured, then we go to the field and clean up the - just do like most farm work there for three years.
There was no piano at the very beginning, so – after two years on the farm, we started - actually, we were allowed to do a little bit of music. So I did two things. One is I drew a piano keyboard on two pieces of paper and I paste them together, the keys, black and white, they're just like the same measurements like a real piano keyboard. So I practiced on paper.
Q: Just in your head?
A: Yeah, exactly. Imagine, it was kind of a picture you have. Yeah, basically practiced on paper. Then later on my brother thought, well, maybe we can make a keyboard. So he made a wood keyboard with the keys that you can actually push down. There's no such thing as mechanism like a piano, but he put a small piece of sponge underneath the white keys and the black keys so I can actually depress the key. I can feel the pressure on the keys. I was the only one had such keyboard, so my friends and my classmates at that time, we practiced – we actually took a rotation and everybody practiced on that kind of keyboard for a few hours a day. Of course, the keyboard had no sound, you just had to imagine what you were playing.
Q: So your brother, what was he doing during the time that you were at school? How much older was he than you?
A: He was two years older than me. And he was sent to Inner Mongolia area to live with peasants. Most of the peasants there are not Mongolian, they are Han, which is a majority of China . So he worked in the fields as well, but not a rice field. Basically, they planted potatoes and that kind of stuff for, I believe, four or five years.
Q: And I'm assuming the government sent him there.
A: Yes. They had a group of eight young men - lived together, so they work there during the busy seasons and they come back to where my parents lived in the winter. Because there wasn't enough food for them to stay that long.
Q: And your sister was younger. How many years younger was she?
A: Five or six years younger.
Q: And what did she do during…
A: She was in school. I think the reason that she didn't go to the countryside is because at that time the government had a policy that you could have one child staying with parents. So she was the only one at home.
Q: How about your parents and your family, what was their social status in China ? You said that they were both in fine arts.
[knock at door; tape off, then resumes on second disc]
Q: Okay. My question was, how was your family's…
A: Social status?
Q: Yeah, and how were they received by the government because…
A: Well, I would say that's a little bit complicated question, because before the Cultural Revolution, China basically was what we called a socialistic society. The idea of socialism is there's no class, everybody's equal in social status, in pay, in work, and so forth. So I would say financially - actually, at that time the salaries everybody got is based on the years of your service, so I don't think they are richer than others. In terms of (pauses) social status in their profession, let's say that - I'm not sure if I said that clearly - but I think artists and intellectuals, before the Cultural Revolution, were quite well respected by the society. So I don't think that financially we were richer than the others. At that time education was free if you were able to get into the school. There's no tuition charge. The only thing you pay for is the food. Even though I lived in a dorm, but there's no extra charge for that.
Q: Once the Cultural Revolution started, what did your parents do?
A: Well, of course, because they're professionals, so of course they had - there were several problems there. The first problem is that my father, because he held administrative position, therefore he was accused as a leader of - well, in that particular working unit, he was accused as a leader of capitalistic path. So, in other words, he's not following the Communist Party's rule but rather leads his working unit to the capitalistic path. So he was suspended by the government. Of course, he was sent to the countryside, too. He didn't have work. I mean, basically what he did was feeding ducks and pigs, do all sorts of labor work.
My mother, even though didn't sent to any farms and so forth, but she had trouble as well because my uncle. I mentioned that he was in Hong Kong . Because we had that kind of a - at that time, if you have any relatives that are overseas or in Hong Kong , you are suspect of spy. My grandmother, that is, my mother's mother and my uncle's mother - my uncle in Hong Kong sent money to my grandmother just because - give her a little bit of extra money to spend. So during the Cultural Revolution, it was accused that my parents received a bonus of being a spy. So my mother was isolated at a place. Basically, they just ask her to write whatever activities that they did, those activities relate to what they accused kind of work, such as sending articles to Hong Kong newspaper, or if there's any suspicious activities. So all those relate to so-called spy work.
My uncle's oldest son grew up in our family because our uncle, at the time, he was not able to take care of his oldest son. So his son stayed with my grandmother, because he's the oldest grandson. But during the Cultural Revolution, of course, he also was suspect. This is my cousin. At the time, he was in college, and then he was very much depressed by the accusation, so he committed suicide. So the college in my mother's working unit, they thought that whole event has something to do with so-called overseas relatives. That's why my mother was isolated and was forced to write or to fake, whatever, the spy stories.
Q: So she had to say that, yes, I am a spy.
A: Yes. But, of course, she didn't do anything. But basically she was saying, "I didn't do anything. I was supporting my brother's son, and that's my job because he wasn't able to take care of it, so I did as much as I can, and I really didn't know where to go." My cousin, he committed suicide, that's what my mother thought. But his school thought he left China and went to Hong Kong . Do you get my story here?
Q: I think so. That's what the school said?
A: Yes.
Q: They told her, or they told everybody that he just - he committed suicide, but really the school said that he went to Hong Kong .
A: Right. My mother said - actually, at the very beginning she didn't know where he went, but she knew that he was depressed, and also he had some kind of notes in his book that indicate that he has this kind of - that he has attempted to commit suicide. But there was no evidence because nobody ever found his body.
Q: So he was supposed to be at school, but they didn't - so do you think like foul play by the school, like they hit him? Is that what you're thinking?
A: Well, of course, the school gave him lots of pressure and that's why he was depressed. But the story was never straightened out. Nobody really knew what was the truth, but my mother really thought …
Q: That he committed suicide.
A: Yeah, because there was notes, because there was stories, because she talked to my cousin's classmates and friends, all those informations that she thought it's possible that's what happened.
Q: Your parents were separated for how long?
A: For about two, three years. While my brother was away and while I was away, so…
Q: Is this your mother, grandmother, and your little sister?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. So when you were three, you lived with your parents, and then you moved - is that right? You moved when you were three, but your parents moved also? To Beijing ?
A: Well, we all moved back to Tianjing, which is about an hour and a half from Beijing . We stayed there for - well, I actually completed my elementary school there, and then I went to Beijing for school.
Q: When you were ten?
A: Yeah. No, actually thirteen.
Q: Do you have any political opinion of Mao and the Communist regime?
A: (laughs)
Q: I'm sure you have to. What were you thinking when you were that age, when you lived there, I guess? Was it just all normal to you? Did you know that maybe this wasn't the right way to do it?
A: Well, that's a very good question.
[telephone ring. Tape turned off, then resumes]
A: It's a good question. But I would say I had no doubt at all while I grow up, simply because I didn't have a chance to learn the other side of the theory, story, or information. So all we learned is from our textbooks, from the history books, from the surrounding political environment. That's all the information I had.
Q: Looking back today, what do you think? Do you have any opinions on, looking back, how they treated you when you were a child? That's a big question.
A: Yeah, that's a pretty complicated question. I would say - I wish I could have had an opportunity to view different aspects of political issues, different studies, and even career possibilities. I wish I had that. But there wasn't many options.
Q: What is your most vivid memory of life in China ? Do you have any just things that are really good about your history, or your childhood?
A: Okay. I remember that I had wonderful food, but only occasionally because during the Chinese spring festival, which is the Chinese New Year, we would always have wonderful food together. But if I'm going to go back - say if I look at what we eat today, probably it was much more variety then, at that time, because at that time these are the only occasional things happened, so that's why I remember very well. I thought the Chinese New Years are the best time of the year. And - - let me think about something else. (pauses)
There's something I remember when I was little. When I was in elementary school, at that time China had no - China was very, very poor. We all had to - even at the elementary school, we had to make some contribution to the country. What we did was, every once a week we got to bring a hammer to school. What we did was, we knock walnuts. So we take the walnuts out and try to get it as whole if we can, and that is part of our schoolwork. So eventually those walnuts without shells were shipped to overseas and sell. That was probably the only export income. Well, it was one of the few items that China could export to the foreign countries.
[Knock on door; tape off, then resumes]
A: I don't know if you understand that kind of story, simply because at that time everybody is so poor, and the country tried to get some…
Q: Extra revenue?
A: Yes, extra revenue. So even for little kids under ten years old, we have to work a little bit. And that's something I remembered.
Q: Okay. So let's go to when you arrived in the U.S. We're going to go to that. You said you were in Michigan . What was your situation when you first arrived? Where did you live? Did you live in the dorm?
A: Well, because I made a contact with a student in University of Michigan , so they put me in a dormitory. The dormitory, most of the students are graduate students, so each of us we have to do a little bit of work. So when we say work, like clean-up, or kitchen work, or wash dishes. So you would pay less. It was very interesting. First of all, I have never seen that kind of cooperation before. Everybody just go there and sign up your time. You want to cook? You want to wash? Or you want to do you want to do whatever work. Secondly, there are ten or more, maybe fifteen, houses connected, and each house has its own government structure. Not government. I mean, it's a house government. What would you call that?
Q: Like it has its own leader?
A: Right. So you decide on certain issues, you make your own rules.
Q: Like a committee.
A: Well, it's actually not a committee.
Q: Everybody votes on what they want to - their own democracy.
A: Yes. I was very surprised by that kind of structure. Because students, they manage their own house, and we have to elect a president, rather than by somebody telling you he or she is the president. And we all have some responsibilities, and we all have to follow certain rules. It was very new to me. Even though back in China we have about twenty-some students in one class. We never had any election. The representative of the class was always named by the teacher. Whomever is the student leader is always named by from top down, rather than students vote. That's something very new to me.
Q: Did you like it?
A: Yes, I enjoyed it, even though I didn't really do any - I didn't take any position, but I thought the idea was rather interesting. Because everybody is participating - they would do something within the small organization, and that's just new to me.
Q: Did you understand that that's kind of how our country ran?
A: I didn't realize until later on.
Q: Until you came back?.
A: Right.
Q: What was the hardest thing to adjust to when you first came over? I'm assuming language.
A: Yeah, I think language is the most difficult thing. Without language, it's hard to communicate. But I think students there were very, very nice. Students there were very nice. When I say nice, because at that time probably there were not many mainland Chinese on their campus. Because at that time not many people left China yet. Well, I would say there was a small number, but music students at that time didn't see many. I probably was the first one from China , so they thought it was a novelty to them. So they taught me English, they joke with me, and they call me some bad words, and they pretend that those are good words. No, they said that there are good words, but actually they're bad. So they asked me to say those words to friends, or so forth, and just play with me.
Q: Would you say you were received well here?
A: I think so, yeah. I remember the first year I made quite a few friends, not only classmates but also people work in the offices. Whenever they see I have difficulty in doing enrollment or filling out forms – the United States has so many different kinds of forms. It depends on what you do. Sometimes a question can be really complicated for a person who is not efficient in language. So I got lots of help from people who work in the offices and working on different levels in school.
Q: You say you've met people by helping you, but were there any other ways that you met new people? Any organizations that you joined?
A: Okay. At the very beginning - actually, when I was in Michigan , I met quite a few American students by language exchange programs. Some of the students wanted to learn Chinese, so I will show them paper I write, and they wanted me to help them to speak Chinese well, so I had quite a few friends like that.
Q: Are there any memorable people that have helped you in your life? You mentioned your uncle. Is there anybody who helped you in your journey here that you can remember?
A: Well, there are a lot. My piano teacher back in Boston was one that I learned the most, I would say. I still send him card once a year and chat with him whenever I have a chance, and playing the piano for him whenever I'm in East Coast.
Q: Have you experienced any barriers or discrimination in the United States ? I mean, you said that the kids kind of played tricks on you, and looking back, they were probably playing around but they were in a way…
A: Well, I think that's just naughty. I didn't feel that was kind of - not discrimination, not at all. Not at all. I don't view that way. I don't have any distinctive memory of anything that I feel that I'm not part of the society. But on the other hand, I would say it's hard to make yourself to be part of the society, because there are two things. One is whether you will be accepted by the society or not. One is whether you wanted to be part of the society.
Q: Did you? Did you want to become American?
A: I would say that every culture has its strong points and weaknesses as well. Not all culture aspects are good. Therefore, I feel certain things in this country are very good, but not everything. So perhaps because I have the Chinese background, therefore I view things differently from…
Q: - an American who has only seen this.
A: Yeah, right. Because I can compare with what I've had, and my experiences always tell me that - well, gradually I have to learn that I've got to think and I've got to not absorb everything, but rather whatever I think that's worth to learn and worth to hold on.
Q: Before coming here, did you expect to be accepted? Were you surprised or disappointed by Americans' acceptance of you? Before you came here, did you think that you would have any problems?
A: Not at all. As I said, I had no expectations because I have no idea how this society is. And I think America is a very generous society. When I say that, I feel that most Americans were - at least the students or faculty on campus or people I met before I came to Kansas - I always feel that they have curiosity, they wanted to learn about me or about Chinese culture, and I always - and also, after two years of studying at the University of Michigan - all my years studying in Boston, I got a scholarship, and I thought why am I getting a scholarship? I'm not American, I've never paid a tax, but on the other hand, I was very well supported by the university. I thought that is a part of the generosity of this culture. America didn't have to pay me for studying in the United States . But on the other hand, I think perhaps they see certain things in me that are valuable to the society, or wish that in the future that I could go back to China , that I could teach what I learned, perhaps I could tell the Chinese that I had a positive experience in this country.
Q: On a lighter note, what do you think of American food?
A: (laughs) I think they're not healthy. The other thing is, when I just came to Kansas , I realized that people eat so much. The food sizes are going up, and I really don't think that they need to eat that much.
Q: Yeah. So are you easily able to find your favorite food from China here in Topeka ?
A: In Topeka ?
Q: Do you still eat Chinese food, or have you…
A: Sort of a combination. I like salad, that's something completely non-Chinese. The Chinese always do stir fry. I don't really eat hamburger that much.
Q: Do you eat meat or beef or steaks?
A: Yeah. I don't (exclude?) anything, but I don't just - I don't eat much. (laughs)
Q: What do you do in your spare time? Do you have any hobbies that you…
A: Well, it depends. When I have time, I like to practice Chinese calligraphy. I have a brush.
Q: Are you pretty good at it?
A: I wouldn't say - just okay. I'm still learning.
Q: Do you take classes? How do you teach yourself?
A: I have a book as a model, so I will just imitate what's there. And that's the way Chinese learning things. Basically, you imitate from the textbook, and the more you do, the better you'll understand why they do so. So eventually, is their hope is you can absorb whatever is there and you can create your own later on. So that's why we always imitate a particular model, and we go from just write over, over again until you feel pretty flexible and you feel very comfortable. And then you throw the model away and write on your own.
Q: I like that.
[End of disc; tape off, then resumes]
Q: Where were we? Let's just ask, do you keep in touch with your relatives - your parents, your brothers and sisters?
A: Yes. Mostly by telephone.
Q: Do your parents have computers?
A: They do but they don't use it. It's hard for them. So mostly by telephone. I call them once a week. I do write to my older brother by e-mail, and my sisters. My sister and I, we talk very often.
Q: So it's easy to keep in touch with them?
A: Yeah.
Q: Even through your beginning years in college?
A: Uh, yeah.
Q: You already told me this, but when was the last time you've been back to China ?
A: Two weeks ago. A group of students went to China to participate in model UN conference. Because none of those students speak Chinese, but at the same time, they wanted to have a little bit experience in Beijing other than the conference. So the university asked me to help them in Beijing , so I went there with them. We visited Forbidden City , Tiananmen Square, also one museum, and two little parks. And, oh, the Great Wall. Those are places I took them to. Also, I took them to my relatives' apartment, just wanted them to see how ordinary people live in China .
Q: Do you get back a lot? How often would you say you go back?
A: In 2004 I spend six months there for my academic sabbatical. So I taught in two schools, one in the city where my parents live and the other one in Beijing , so I traveled back and forth, the first half of the week I'm in Beijing and the second half in I'm in Tianjin. I stayed there for six months.
Q: Your parents are still together?
A: Mm-hmm.
Q: So living in America and watching things change in China , what have you felt? Like Tiananmen Square , what were your thoughts on that?
A: Well, I think China is changing very, very fast. But on the other hand, China still is a very poor country. Most visitors, most foreigners, when they go to China , they only see one side of China . When they go to Shanghai , they see that Shanghai is completely westernized. They think, oh, look at those skyscrapers, and they have lots of new buildings and a wonderful museum and fabulous food and beautiful shopping mall. But this only part of China . If they only see these, it's like very much like you go to New York window shopping. But the real part of China , not many visitors see.
Q: In the western part?
A: Right. Not only that, even big cities. You will see lots of people are still very, very poor. Like the last couple of weeks when I took students to Beijing and we were talking to people that we just bump into on the street, and I asked this guy, I said, "Oh, could we see your house? Just give students a little bit of impression of how ordinary people live?" And he said, "Oh, my house is very messy, but I don't mind." So we all went into their house. I call it a house because it's not an apartment complex, but the kitchen is just about enough for one person. They have one propane burner there, and there was a washing machine, and that's about it for that kitchen. And across the yard was their living quarter, and there's one room probably only have this much room (holds hands far apart), has two beds, no window. And there are two adjacent rooms. The outside has a table that you can eat there, and there was a motorcycle - because he probably used that for transportation. We didn't ask him what's his job, what does he do, what kind of income he has, but you can tell that their living standard is very low.
So what I'm saying is, even though China moves very fast, the economy actually grows like seven to nine percent each year, and that's all on the news. But on the other hand, China has 1.3 billion people, and I would say the gap between rich and poor has expanded extremely drastically in the last few years. That is the part that I really didn't like to see. At least, during the Mao period, there is no terribly rich people and terribly poor people. Because the government was at least attempt to make the social status and their financial status relatively equal. But nowadays, if you go to the countryside, you can see people extremely poor, or you can see city people, some of those city people are extremely rich. It's unimaginably rich, and they could have three, four, five apartments, and each of them about two or three hundred square meters big. And they could have lots of different places, and they could send money overseas. But the poor people, they have no hospital to go if they got sick, and they have no social security.
Q: So your parents, how are they now? You said your father retire?
A: That's a good question. My father is eighty-six years old, and he started to work before the Communist Party took over, so government, start from the 1980s or maybe 1990s decided to grandfather those people who started work before 1949. In other words, their salaries are kept current and they have - all their medical bills will be reimbursed. So they were grandfathered by the government. But like my brother, he was born after 1949, and therefore when he is retired, he has only very limited social security and very limited medical insurance.
Q: But he lives in Los Angeles, right?
A: My brother.
Q: Oh, so your father.
A: No, my father is still in China . My brother is in China . My sister is in Los Angeles .
Q: Oh, I got this backwards. Your brother became the engineer?
A: Right. He's going to retire pretty soon, because in China there is a mandatory retirement age and so forth, so he will be retired soon. And when he retires he will have a miserable life because of the health insurance benefits, they are low, and social security, they are low.
Q: So do you know what he'll do?
A: I don't know. My sister and I will just help him as much as we can.
Q: Is there any way he can continue working? Or is it a forced retirement?
A: It's a forced retirement for that particular position. Of course, if you are able to find something else to do, for example, if you are able to make some trade yourself, you can do it, but it's so difficult. There's so many people retired when they are fifty-five or sixty-five years old, and most of them just stay home and hope that they won't ever get sick.
Q: What's your mother do? Is she still acting? Or no. What does she do now?
A: Retired. At home.
Q: Okay. What lessons have you learned immigrating to the U.S. ? You've kind of touched on things.
A: What do you mean by - give me an example.
Q: Well, you've learned how democracy - I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I guess you could say that you've learned that no one system is right, because you…
A: No perfect system, right.
Q: That's kind of a question that we kind of went over. I haven't asked, are you a citizen of the United States ?
A: Yes. I am acquiring 2001, I think. Mainly because at that time it's difficult to travel if you hold a Chinese passport. When you go to Europe , you have to - Europe is very small, when you go to one country you've got to get a visa, when you go to another country you get another visa, so you basically have to acquire four or five visas if you want to take a train to go over Europe . So basically that was the difficulty, so I decided why don't I apply for citizen so I can travel easily.
Q: Would you say that has any meaning to you, that now you're an American citizen?
A: (laughs) Has any meaning to me. Uh - (pauses) Perhaps - let's not discuss that question. (laughs)
A: I mean, you can vote now, right?
SD: Yes, I can vote. Yes, absolutely. That's a good point. When I was in China , I wasn't old enough to vote before the Cultural Revolution. When they started the voting system, I was out of the country, so I was never able to vote until last year. Not last year.
Q: Oh, 2004?
A: 2004, yes.
A: Do you regret anything? Do you regret coming to the U.S. at all, or is there anything that you maybe would have done differently in your trip here?
SD: You mean in terms of the immigration?
Q: You mentioned that you wanted to go back. Would you still say you want to go back some day?
A: You mean permanently?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know. On the one hand, because I grow up in China therefore I feel more comfortable in that kind of society. When I say more comfortable, I meant that food is easier, there's no language problems, and there are more relatives, I guess, in that term. I would say just easier. Yeah, it's just easier. But I don't know if I could work there again, because, first of all, the government has these mandatory retirement policies. You've got to retire at fifty-five and there not much else you can do afterwards. There are certain good points and bad points of live there. Of course, there are some good point and bad points live here. So I really don't know. I don't say I regret to stay in the United States . I don't say that at all. I feel that I was lucky enough that I was able to see both sides of the world. China has 1.3 billion people and I probably was one of a very small number of people were able, or had a chance, to see both sides. I feel that I enrich a great deal by this side of the world. Without this kind of experience, I probably would not be able to - without my education in the United States , I probably would not be able to reach to the artistic goal as what I have reached. So I would say from that aspect I have great respect to this country.
But on the other hand, I still feel that, even though I'm a citizen of the United States , but I still feel inside me is a Chinese, because I grew up there, because I still go back so often. Inside of me I really feel that I hope China one day could get better, not only get richer, but also most of the kids can receive the education like kids here in this country. And I hope that the Chinese can live as comfortable as Americans. I wish that their political situation could be as democratic as in this country. I wish everybody could have a good working environment and a good government to protect them, to support them, and to give them a good retirement life.
That's one thing this time I saw in China , lots of older people, they have no interest, they can't even go to hospital because before you get into hospital, you have to put down your deposit, otherwise the hospital turn you away. There are lots of people, they just collect the garbage. Lots of people collect the garbage for support their families. I watch the TVs while I was there and see so many college students, they have to be supported by their parents, and some of those parents are extremely poor. Sometimes some of those students had to give up their education opportunity to help their parents. I just feel that I wish all the kids, they have the capability of achieve toward their goals, and I wish they all had an opportunity.
Q: Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to say that I missed? Anything?
A: Well, the only one thing I want to mention is the education system here. I think I've learned a great deal in this country, particularly how to learn. In China we have our own learning system, and it's very much like the way I described how to work on calligraphy. We have some kind model and you imitate, and you just do repetitive work and hope that you will get better. So in grammar school or high school, all we did was just do whatever teacher told us to do and learn whatever he taught us. But on the other hand, we didn't learn how to think. So therefore, I would say I didn't have my own mind, basically because my mind was controlled by others and I was taught and was told this is the only way, this is the only way to learn, this is the only information you have, and you've got to carry this information and carry what you learn to the next generation.
But in the United States the most amazing thing that I learned from school is that your goal is not to just learn a piece of music or learn a particular article, but learn how to think. You learn a concept, you learn to teach yourself how to think. That's something that I never had before.
Q: So how did you adjust to that when you got here?
A: I was very much relying on teacher. I feel that my teacher - at the very beginning I feel, hmm, I don't learn enough, because he basically say, "Learn this piece," or, "Why don't you pick a piece you wanted to learn." But in China , when I was in school, basically teachers tell me what to learn, what to practice, and how to practice. But here, it's very much you have to teach yourself. If you learn how to teach yourself, you actually gain knowledge. I think that is a great deal. I just feel that that's something that I hope that Chinese schools, or the Chinese education is going to have to change, not only learn skills, not only learn specific things, but learn how to think.
Of course, the things are changed so much. Nowadays, everyone can go to the Internet and get information, even though for the same subject, if you do a search in China , you won't get as much information as you get in the United States . I actually have read about the Google search, and so forth. That presents the same situation in China . But it's much broader than the time that I grew up.
Q: All right. Well, thank you very much.
END OF INTERVIEW