Far Travelers Oral History Project
Interview with Mrs. Karen Lee
(click here for Word Document Version)
NOTE: This is a draft version, with work still needed to fill in words the transcriber couldn't understand
INTERVIEWER: Emery WrightDATE: April 9, 2006
Q: Today is Wednesday, April 19th. The time is 10:35. Let's begin with the interview. First of all, could you tell me your name.
KL: I'm from Taiwan originally, and my Taiwan name is _____, and I married Lee, so it's _____ Lee. When I was naturalized as an American citizen in 1987, I adopted an American name, so that's what I use now is Karen Lee.
Q: And how old were you when you immigrated to America?
KL: I was twenty-three years old when I first came.
Q: What was your life like in Taiwan, and how does that compare with your life now in America?
KL: My life in Taiwan was a very sheltered kind of life. My dad is a medical doctor, so I lived a very sheltered life. And here, it's an adventuresome life. I'd never been out of country before we came here, so it was an adventure for me.
Q: What is Taiwanese culture like? How does it compare to America?
KL: It's very different, of course. It's kind of Western, and it's a different set of values, of course. Just one example is when friends go out, if you're very close friends, usually one person will pay for the dinner for the entire party, for the group. But over here, it's a practice of Dutch go. So that's a culture difference. Another culture difference is when someone smokes, they would share their cigarette among the persons in the group. So, many, many difference in culture and values. It's almost – at times I feel that you're fitting a square shape into a round shape over here, try to make many adjustments because of the difference.
But basically, I just feel that the more difference there are the fewer difference there are, because human nature are basically the same. We all hope for the good and avoid the evil. That's human nature.
Q: What practices from Taiwan, cultural practices, do you still maintain? Or have you given most of them up?
KL: It's give and take. I am fifty-eight years old now, so I spend most of my adult life here, so I pretty much have become adapted into the American way of life. But I do have advantage of a perspective and different kind of values that give me a chance to pick and choose what's the best for a person so that there will be advantage.
Q: Do you remember your motivation for leaving Taiwan?
KL: I come here because my husband come here as a medical doctor in training. It's under an exchange scholar visa, so he was invited by the United States to come over here for a training program. And after that, Immigration granted us an opportunity to stay, so we choose to stay. At that time we choose to stay.
Q: Were you apprehensive about coming to America, or was it something that excited you?
KL: Most of the young person at the time, I think they will be excited about the opportunity to be here. Our exposure to America is American movies, so it's always exciting. It's a new and different world, so young people, naturally, are looking forward to the adventure.
Q: When you did arrive, was it what you expected? Did it fit the Hollywood movie presentation?
KL: (chuckles) That's a good question. No, not Hollywood movies. My first destination is Pottsville, Pennsylvania. It's a small mining town, and my husband was an intern in the local Pottsville hospital. It was a very quiet place, and I came from Taiwan, from place there are people everywhere, there's noise, there's traffic. And I landed in Pottsville in November 1970. It was quiet, it was snowing, and I didn't see any people. It was a culture shock.
Q: At that time did that make you want to go back to Taiwan?
KL: Yes. I was very, very lonely here.
Q: When coming to America for the first time, and any time during the years following your immigration, did you experience obstacles, interferences like stereotypes, difficulties like personal biases, or anything like that? Either from yourself or from others.
KL: It's very subtle. Personally, I don't really have any bad experience. But I don't think that's the truth with everybody. I do have advantage of having a –
[telephone interruption – tape off, then resumes]
Q: So could you talk about your personal biases or biases of others towards you, discrimination?
KL: In my case it's very subtle. I don't really have one very bad experience, but my husband, being a medical doctor he does have experience of patients who refuse to be treated by him.
Q: Oh. What was involved with that?
KL: That would be the patient request not be treated by an Asian. But actually he's a very good doctor and has a good following of patients. So that just happened to him –
Q: It still happens?
KL: It gets better. We are here thirty years. At the beginning part of his practice here, it happened.
Q: Was that discouraging to him? Or to you both?
KL: Yes. Of course, it's a very strange experience. But we understand discrimination and bias and prejudice, it's always around, so we just brush it off. There's not a whole lot you can do about people's biases.
Q: As a result of coming to America, what opportunities have been afforded to you that you would not have had in Taiwan?
KL: Taiwan, of course, is an old country with thousands years of history, and there is a lot of tradition. For a woman there is a class there. Man usually is higher than woman, so woman is always a subordinate in roles there. It's getting better now, but still there is that kind of cultural. So over here it gives me the opportunity to just be myself. And that's important. I can pursue any dream that I want.
Q: You mentioned that personally you really haven't experienced that much, I guess, discrimination, but could you give details of your experiences as an immigrant coming from Taiwan to America?
KL: Well, you have to give me a more specific question. In general, I would say it's a good experience. It allow me plenty of space to grow and allow me a chance to be the individual that I want.
Q: Have you experienced any sort of discrimination?
KL: Discrimination is very subtle. Mostly not. I would say not. If there is any, it's very subtle. But that's not always the case with all the immigrants. I do have the advantage of having better command of the English language, and that helps. But that's not always the case. A lot of people here, some are Chinese restaurant workers and that sort of thing. They don't always have the advantage of being able to explain themselves.
Q: So you feel that the language barrier causes more discrimination than anything else?
KL: That's part of it, mm-hmm. And then I think discrimination is always a matter of attitude.
Q: Is America the land of opportunity, in your opinion?
KL: Absolutely. Absolutely America is the land of opportunity. Anyone that is willing to work and willing to work hard and have a good attitude and want to advance in their life, I feel there is a chance in America. Absolutely.
Q: Do you enjoy the benefits of living in a democratic country?
KL: Indeed, yes, because when I left Taiwan, Taiwan was under martial law. That was back in 1970, under martial law. There are no freedom of speech or association. No freedom _____, at that time. Although it changed now. But it certainly is a good thing to be in a free society, in a democratic society.
Q: Obviously, the government of Taiwan, the Taiwan that you left in 1970, differs from America's government. Do you feel that there are still strong differences in their government?
KL: It's getting closer now. There are freedom of speech, freedom of association, and always freedom of religion in Taiwan, so it's coming very close now. It's a long road for past thirty years, but it's getting to be a democratic society, yes.
Q: When you first arrived in America, where did you work?
KL: When I first arrived, I was a young kid. I stayed home.
Q: Okay. Did you go to school anywhere? Did you get your education in Taiwan or in the United States?
KL: I have B.S. degree in political science from Taiwan. Then I come here and I raised a family. Then in 1980s I went back to school. I attended Washburn School of Law and graduated in class of 1983.
Q: What was your experience like at Washburn?
KL: It was a good experience but it was very hard experience, because I'm studying law in a second language. I had to work very hard.
Q: That's a difficult subject.
KL: Yes. I had to work very hard. It's funny, but when we started law school, the professor would tell us, "Well, this will be like foreign language to you," and for me it's foreign, foreign language.
Q: Yes, it's double foreign language.
KL: Double foreign language for me, yes. I had to work so much harder, yes. But that's a childhood dream to be an attorney, so you have to achieve that regardless where your fate takes you, then it's just a dream I feel I have to accomplish.
Q: What do you hope to do in the future?
KL: I'd like to retire now. I did work for a local firm here for thirteen years, _____ and international problems. Then I retired. But I'm looking forward to actually pick up again and coming out of my retirement and probably pursuing some second career.
Q: Do you have any idea what that second career is? Would it be in the law field?
KL: It would not be – probably something related to art. I collect art and I like art.
Q: Are you an artist yourself?
KL: Used to be. I need to go pick up my paintbrush. I used to paint when I was young.
Q: What kind of painting?
KL: Chinese calligraphy. It's ink, black ink on red paper.
Q: After law school, was finding employment difficult for you?
KL: At the time I would like to be working in some area that's international, and since I'm bilingual, that would be better usage of my degree. No, actually it's not.
Q: You said you worked for a private company in Topeka?
KL: In Topeka. Actually, Topeka is quite international. You have _____, _____ shoe stores, they have shoes made overseas. And there are a couple local companies that subcontract offshore. So there's actually quite a few venues here.
Q: How has your reception been in the community? Well, specifically, I guess, the Topeka community.
KL: I feel I'm very fortunate. I feel I'm very well received here. Very well received. People are friendly. I have served on several board of directors in the community. I have served on the board of Community Foundation and some hospitals, _____, and now I'm serving on Board of Regents at Washburn University. So I feel I'm very blessed that I have a chance to give back to the community.
Q: Going back to when you were twenty-three years old and leaving Taiwan. What was going through your mind?
KL: At that time I have a child seven months old, and I just feel that I'm venturing into unknown territory. Actually, I don't feel I was that prepared. I simply followed my husband. His career took him here, and I followed him. So it was unknown territory.
Q: Did it scare you to leave Taiwan?
KL: I should be but I wasn't. I think it's a feeling of adventure, that you're going – I'm always have a curiosity personality and just that feeling of – I took it as an adventure.
Q: Knowing what you do now, reflecting back on your time in America, do you think that you made the right decision to leave Taiwan? Would you have done it again?
KL: That's a tough question. It'll depend on from what angle that you look at it. I would probably accomplish just as much in Taiwan. Although at the time the woman is, as I said, subordinate role. But now in Taiwan women are actually in – they're beginning to take more of important roles, as far as in a career and all that. I would say I would probably accomplish just the same. Although, if I were in Taiwan, I would probably be able to be in the field of broadcasting. But over here, that role is not available because I do speak with an accent, so I don't think that would be available.
Q: Is broadcasting something that you would like to do?
KL: That comes in my mind sometimes.
Q: Do you ever wonder about how your life would have been different if you had stayed in Taiwan?
KL: Yes, I've thought about it. I thought about it, but I wouldn't know how much more – I feel I do accomplish a lot here. And I'm a very driven person. I probably would have accomplished just as much in Taiwan, and overcome whatever – the obstacles that I have here, naturally, the language, it's immigrant status, but I think I overcome that. But in Taiwan there are other obstacles – tradition and social status of a woman. So that's different kind of obstacles. I think I probably could _____ either way.
Q: Does your family still live in Taiwan, or are they in America?
KL: Some of the family – we have siblings that live here and some are still in Taiwan.
Q: Are the family interactions different because of that?
KL: The distance tore us apart, a long way to visit. We visit by phone. But it's different. You can't just go down the street or have a family reunion. That type of thing is hard to put together.
Q: Was that difficult for you when you were raising your family?
KL: It's very difficult in respect to my kids. My kids speak mostly English, and they understand some Taiwanese, but they don't have the skill to communicate well with relatives, and that makes it very difficult to have a relationship.
Q: Do you feel that they understand the Taiwanese culture? Or are they sort of out of touch with it?
KL: Mostly I would say they understand some culture because we raised them with some of the Taiwanese value. We emphasize family bonds and importance of education. As far as the deeper part of culture and the knowledge of country, I think they're out of touch with it. They were born and raised here just like you, so they're not so much different. They attend Topeka West High School, and they attend the university here. They were born and raised here, so they are not that much different to you, in how they were raised.
Q: Do you wish that they were more in touch with their culture, or had experienced their culture?
KL: Yes. I wish they were more into it, but it would take a lot of doing. It would be just like asking you to be able to speak Taiwanese dialect and Chinese Mandarin. That would be a lot to ask of you. And it's no different. That would be a lot to ask of my kids to be able to master their language.
Q: How do you feel about the culture that your kids did grow up in?
KL: They have advantage of occidental and oriental values. We pick and choose. We pick and choose what's the best of that particular culture and the value and give them that set of values. So I would say they've all grown up to be just very well rounded.
Q: Is there any advice that you would like to give to anyone listening to this interview?
KL: There is some advice I would like to give to the immigrants. I would encourage them to master the language. I would encourage them to mainstream themselves into American society, because after all, this is your home and you want to be able to live comfortably in this part of the world. So mainstreaming is very important. Could I have a little say about our current immigrants?
Q: Yes.
[tape off, then resumes]
Q: We were talking about immigrants, and you said that you had something that you'd like to share, advice to give the immigrants. You believe that when someone comes to America they need to make an effort to learn the language, and when we were last talking you mentioned some advice that you'd like to give the immigrants. Do you remember what that was?
KL: I'd like to take this chance toward the issue of immigrants coming to the United States. I came by invitation by U.S. government to be here, so we came as a legal immigrant. As you know, there is a big issue of illegal immigrants. I think in looking at the illegal immigrants, we have to understand almost everybody in the United States came to this country as immigrants, almost everybody. So we have to approach that with some understanding. Any time a person comes, takes a very treacherous route to come to this country, I feel we have to show kindness. After all, this is a country of immigrants, made out of immigrants.
For example, Mexican immigrants. I have understanding of where they come from because I travel to Phoenix quite a lot, and there is a lot of work that is performed that I will probably not do it, and cannot do it, and don't want to do it. So they are here to fill a void in our society, and of course the labor is part of it. America is a very generous country. We give foreign aid to countries. We send goods, we send money to countries. I feel that Mexicans can be willing to work to support their families, so that would seem to me it's better than just handing them foreign aid, hand them the money and help them out. They're willing to work.
It's just a matter of to come up with a system, or a law, to accommodate for them to be here legally. And I feel that can be done by issuing work permits and give them a time limit. I think most immigrants, either Chinese that work behind the Chinese kitchen or Mexicans that work behind the construction, I'm sure if you give them a chance, they would rather be out in the public and not have to fear being chased down by Immigration Service.
We are in Iraq, we are in Afghanistan to help them to be a democratic society, to help their people to have a better quality of life. But by doing that we sacrifice the life of our young men and women in the _____. I think there are different ways to help _____. They are here to work, they would not be here if there are no jobs. So I feel that it's a two-way street. It's not a matter of immigrant coming in here and just exhaust our system. Naturally, we accommodate them because they have kids, but also they contribute to the labor force. So we need to look at the issue with a little bit more open mindedness and with some kind of generosity, like we have always been, a country of immigrants.
Q: I think that is something that people lose track of. They forget that most people – well, like you said, it's a country of immigrants, and at some points their families came from another country and wouldn't be here if not for that. How do you feel about people who say that the illegal immigrants are taking away the jobs from American citizens, natural citizens?
KL: In Topeka you have to just look at the labor market here. It's very difficult to hire someone in certain fields, like masonry or like in the meat packing plant. There are some who feel that our people just have not that much desire to be in it. Of course, they're saying that because of the immigrants that we are having difficulty raising the minimum wage. But that's another issue. If there are enough people that are willing to perform in the field, they _____ most of the trash collector, construction hands, kitchen dishwasher, those are all immigrants. But if we want to perform, we can ask for higher minimum wages. But if we're not willing to perform, then the employer will go ahead and hire, for example, Mexicans and they're willing to accept just the minimum wage for their job. There are people that are willing to do it.
Q: I recently attended a lecture at Washburn about worldwide slavery. Kevin Bales did a lecture on that. Are you aware that there are still slaves in America and Taiwan and other countries?
KL: Yes. I would not specifically call it slaves because that is a really degrading term. I would say underpaid labor? In Taiwan, because of the quality of life, there are many foreign laborers. There are many foreign laborers in Taiwan, because most Taiwanese, they would not perform work as construction hands and –
Q: Physical labor.
KL: And domestic help. Right. So there are many. My own family have domestic help from Indonesia back in Taiwan. So there's a supply and demand. It's an issue of supply and demand.
Q: Have you ever seen these sort of transactions where one group of people sell another group of people for work? Or is it more of a hiring process?
KL: It would depend on how you term it. All the laborers, domestic help, all those foreign labor – in Taiwan they call them foreign labor. In Taiwan they don't call it immigrants. They simply give them a work permit to be in the country for a certain amount of time. Then when it's expired, they have to leave the country. So it can be done to control the laborers that wish to work in American. It can be done because it was done in Taiwan. It is a very control of work permit. You come in and you work for a certain amount of time, and then you have to leave. Most of those foreign labor, they come through an agent. And, of course, the agent take a big cut of their salary, a big chunk of their pay. So it depends on how you want to call it.
Q: Is there anything else that you'd like to add?
KL: No. I just want to thank you and I want to thank the Humanity Council and Washburn University for allowing me this opportunity to discuss the issue. I think it's an issue we need to bring to the public's attention, and we need to talk about it, and we need to resolve it with understanding and kindness. That's what this country stands for, freedom and a democratic society. Thank you.
Q: Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW